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	<title>Comments on: Libertas launches</title>
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	<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/</link>
	<description>In search of a European identity</description>
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		<title>By: Nosemonkey &#187; Blog Archive &#187; European elections: UK voting intentions</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-61061</link>
		<dc:creator>Nosemonkey &#187; Blog Archive &#187; European elections: UK voting intentions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-61061</guid>
		<description>[...] up of 2,157 adults. It is also unclear whether a vote for newly launched pan-EU political party Libertas was an option - or how many people said that they would not be voting at all. Considering turn-out [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] up of 2,157 adults. It is also unclear whether a vote for newly launched pan-EU political party Libertas was an option &#8211; or how many people said that they would not be voting at all. Considering turn-out [...]</p>
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		<title>By: European elections: UK voting intentions&#160;&#124;&#160;Nosemonkey&#8217;s EUtopia</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-61060</link>
		<dc:creator>European elections: UK voting intentions&#160;&#124;&#160;Nosemonkey&#8217;s EUtopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-61060</guid>
		<description>[...] is also unclear whether a vote for newly launched pan-EU political party Libertas was an option - or how many people said that they would not be voting at all. Either way, only 1% [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is also unclear whether a vote for newly launched pan-EU political party Libertas was an option &#8211; or how many people said that they would not be voting at all. Either way, only 1% [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Tagsmanian Devil &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Trust, the EU and Web 2.0</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60987</link>
		<dc:creator>The Tagsmanian Devil &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Trust, the EU and Web 2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60987</guid>
		<description>[...] and responsive enough to be worth the effort. The size of the Eurosceptic vote, particularly given the recent launch of the pan-EU Libertas group, will also be a keenly awaited [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and responsive enough to be worth the effort. The size of the Eurosceptic vote, particularly given the recent launch of the pan-EU Libertas group, will also be a keenly awaited [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Tagsmanian Devil &#187; Trust, the EU and Web2.0</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60984</link>
		<dc:creator>The Tagsmanian Devil &#187; Trust, the EU and Web2.0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 09:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60984</guid>
		<description>[...] and responsive enough to be worth the effort. The size of the Eurosceptic vote, particularly given the recent launch of the pan-EU Libertas group, will also be a keenly awaited [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and responsive enough to be worth the effort. The size of the Eurosceptic vote, particularly given the recent launch of the pan-EU Libertas group, will also be a keenly awaited [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mathew</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60951</link>
		<dc:creator>mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60951</guid>
		<description>Your hobby horse is a good one - we have national politics trying to steer the EU. You just have to look at Belgian politics to see where this will eventually lead. 

So the emergence of a pan-EU party is worth celebrating in itself, but I really doubt it&#039;s a model that&#039;ll work for anything other than a party with a quite simplistic agenda that can be reinterpreted easily along national lines. I think most people will continue to view EU and international issues largely through national lenses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your hobby horse is a good one &#8211; we have national politics trying to steer the EU. You just have to look at Belgian politics to see where this will eventually lead. </p>
<p>So the emergence of a pan-EU party is worth celebrating in itself, but I really doubt it&#8217;s a model that&#8217;ll work for anything other than a party with a quite simplistic agenda that can be reinterpreted easily along national lines. I think most people will continue to view EU and international issues largely through national lenses.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Davidson</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60764</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 18:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60764</guid>
		<description>Leaving aside the actual positioning of Libertas within the European political spectrum, for me the most significant aspect of their establishment is their unashamedly &quot;pan-European&quot; stance, dedicated (only time will demonstrate how effective they are) to projecting a common policy agenda across the entire Union. 

Surely that is a revolutionary change in style worth celebrating? Apologies in advance for jumping on my hobby horse but I am constantly berating the Europe of Nations template upon which the EU has been founded from day one; an inherent flaw all too apparent when it comes to the function of political parties on the European stage. In essence they remain national parties, dressed up in faux European regalia for the circus (A.K.A. EP elections and day to day discourse within the EP) but resolutely contesting matters on more or less respective National agendas. The groupings utilised for the European Parliament are merely organisational devices designed to paper over these obvious geographical cracks. To date, only the Green Party can claim partial success in moving towards a pan-European structure but they still largely project individual National identities.

Perhaps if Libertas do have some success this will encourage more mainstream rivals to emulate this methodology? That would be a good thing in general because it would oblige parties to develop a specifically European form of policy output. Gradually (it would take years) this would influence the public in the way they assess different policy areas, allowing citizens to place individual policies under distinct geographical umbrellas.

If that leap forward in the way individual citizens step appraise individual policy areas could be achieved it would represent a paradigm shift in public disposition toward the entire European political agenda. Ultimately, we would end up with a European public &quot;educated&quot; to accept that a particular policy should be managed entirely by either European or Domestic institutions of accountable governance. Once that notion becomes orthodoxy it is but a short step to the establishment of real European governance rather than the sham version we are currently saddled with.

Maybe all of the above is simply wishful thinking on my part but somewhat perversely I actually hope that Libertas have some modest success with their pan-European model?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leaving aside the actual positioning of Libertas within the European political spectrum, for me the most significant aspect of their establishment is their unashamedly &#8220;pan-European&#8221; stance, dedicated (only time will demonstrate how effective they are) to projecting a common policy agenda across the entire Union. </p>
<p>Surely that is a revolutionary change in style worth celebrating? Apologies in advance for jumping on my hobby horse but I am constantly berating the Europe of Nations template upon which the EU has been founded from day one; an inherent flaw all too apparent when it comes to the function of political parties on the European stage. In essence they remain national parties, dressed up in faux European regalia for the circus (A.K.A. EP elections and day to day discourse within the EP) but resolutely contesting matters on more or less respective National agendas. The groupings utilised for the European Parliament are merely organisational devices designed to paper over these obvious geographical cracks. To date, only the Green Party can claim partial success in moving towards a pan-European structure but they still largely project individual National identities.</p>
<p>Perhaps if Libertas do have some success this will encourage more mainstream rivals to emulate this methodology? That would be a good thing in general because it would oblige parties to develop a specifically European form of policy output. Gradually (it would take years) this would influence the public in the way they assess different policy areas, allowing citizens to place individual policies under distinct geographical umbrellas.</p>
<p>If that leap forward in the way individual citizens step appraise individual policy areas could be achieved it would represent a paradigm shift in public disposition toward the entire European political agenda. Ultimately, we would end up with a European public &#8220;educated&#8221; to accept that a particular policy should be managed entirely by either European or Domestic institutions of accountable governance. Once that notion becomes orthodoxy it is but a short step to the establishment of real European governance rather than the sham version we are currently saddled with.</p>
<p>Maybe all of the above is simply wishful thinking on my part but somewhat perversely I actually hope that Libertas have some modest success with their pan-European model?</p>
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		<title>By: Rugt</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60745</link>
		<dc:creator>Rugt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 07:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60745</guid>
		<description>Seems to me Ganley is a unionist, not a federalist nor nationalist. Completely fine by me, because I&#039;d rather have people vote unionist than nationalist. I mean, there is some validity in his initiative in creating the first big potential pan-European party. The main problem is a lot of the parties who claim to be unionist simply are nationalist. So it remains to be seen of how he&#039;s going to find that (undiscovered?) middle ground in the spectrum.

For example, the June List in Sweden (controlled top-down, filled with a diverse group of political retirees and rejects) campaigned as an anti-EU party and served as a choice for disgruntled anti-integrationists. I can&#039;t say I&#039;ve ever met any June List voter who said they&#039;re for the EU. I can&#039;t say I&#039;ve seen any party member take any positive position on anything from Brussels. So this means I could never find myself voting for them. Ever. Yet the party refer themselves as &quot;pro-EU?&quot; (I didn&#039;t personally know this very fact until the day prior to election day, from a TV interview). That&#039;s what I&#039;m afraid Libertas could become.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me Ganley is a unionist, not a federalist nor nationalist. Completely fine by me, because I&#8217;d rather have people vote unionist than nationalist. I mean, there is some validity in his initiative in creating the first big potential pan-European party. The main problem is a lot of the parties who claim to be unionist simply are nationalist. So it remains to be seen of how he&#8217;s going to find that (undiscovered?) middle ground in the spectrum.</p>
<p>For example, the June List in Sweden (controlled top-down, filled with a diverse group of political retirees and rejects) campaigned as an anti-EU party and served as a choice for disgruntled anti-integrationists. I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;ve ever met any June List voter who said they&#8217;re for the EU. I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;ve seen any party member take any positive position on anything from Brussels. So this means I could never find myself voting for them. Ever. Yet the party refer themselves as &#8220;pro-EU?&#8221; (I didn&#8217;t personally know this very fact until the day prior to election day, from a TV interview). That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m afraid Libertas could become.</p>
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		<title>By: nosemonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60736</link>
		<dc:creator>nosemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60736</guid>
		<description>Jon / Ralf - MEPs are set to get about £77k a year after the next elections, aren&#039;t they? On those terms, I could be convinced... Heh!

Art - 1) How is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ndn.org/transcripts/071708.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; anti-European? &quot;I&#039;ve got four young children.  I want them to grow up in an Ireland, in a Europe that is a place that is capable of leading the world to a place that is worth going to.  Yes, I have the audacity to believe that Europe can go through a renaissance.  It&#039;s capable of having the confidence, the strength, and the unity to once again lead the world or at least help lead it in a responsible way.&quot; He&#039;s also talked about the possibility of building &quot;a multi-layered Europe&quot;, something I&#039;ve long been in favour of.

2) Ganley is Anglo-Irish with dual nationality - born in England, but both parents are Irish - albeit raised in the UK until the age of 13.

3) Aside from the fact that the Socialist and Socialist Workers parties were also against the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland (along with about half the Irish Greens and various other organisations of all political persuasions for a vast variety of reasons), considering the long-running financial backing of Sinn Fein and the IRA by Americans, I doubt mentioning any entirely coincidental links with their policies would have done him any harm...

4) Am I convinced by Ganley&#039;s rhetoric? No. Am I convinced he has everyone&#039;s best interests at heart? No. Am I worried by the shady nature of his sources of funding? Yes. But to dismiss him outright as an &quot;anti-European&quot; is actually to play into his hands - all this will do is increase his chances of picking up the eurosceptic vote that he will need in order to succeed. He is sceptical, certainly - but from what he says, only of the way the EU currently works. Based on his public pronouncements, if he&#039;s a eurosceptic or an anti-European, then so am I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon / Ralf &#8211; MEPs are set to get about £77k a year after the next elections, aren&#8217;t they? On those terms, I could be convinced&#8230; Heh!</p>
<p>Art &#8211; 1) How is <a href="http://www.ndn.org/transcripts/071708.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> anti-European? &#8220;I&#8217;ve got four young children.  I want them to grow up in an Ireland, in a Europe that is a place that is capable of leading the world to a place that is worth going to.  Yes, I have the audacity to believe that Europe can go through a renaissance.  It&#8217;s capable of having the confidence, the strength, and the unity to once again lead the world or at least help lead it in a responsible way.&#8221; He&#8217;s also talked about the possibility of building &#8220;a multi-layered Europe&#8221;, something I&#8217;ve long been in favour of.</p>
<p>2) Ganley is Anglo-Irish with dual nationality &#8211; born in England, but both parents are Irish &#8211; albeit raised in the UK until the age of 13.</p>
<p>3) Aside from the fact that the Socialist and Socialist Workers parties were also against the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland (along with about half the Irish Greens and various other organisations of all political persuasions for a vast variety of reasons), considering the long-running financial backing of Sinn Fein and the IRA by Americans, I doubt mentioning any entirely coincidental links with their policies would have done him any harm&#8230;</p>
<p>4) Am I convinced by Ganley&#8217;s rhetoric? No. Am I convinced he has everyone&#8217;s best interests at heart? No. Am I worried by the shady nature of his sources of funding? Yes. But to dismiss him outright as an &#8220;anti-European&#8221; is actually to play into his hands &#8211; all this will do is increase his chances of picking up the eurosceptic vote that he will need in order to succeed. He is sceptical, certainly &#8211; but from what he says, only of the way the EU currently works. Based on his public pronouncements, if he&#8217;s a eurosceptic or an anti-European, then so am I.</p>
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		<title>By: Art</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60735</link>
		<dc:creator>Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60735</guid>
		<description>Declan Ganley and Libertas are about as anti-European as it is possible to be. Don&#039;t be taken by his press releases and PR stunts, instead listen to what he says to his American audience (at the heritage foundation) and watch what he does. Ganley is a British man living in Ireland, with American business projects. He wants to be taken seriously in Britain and America and has launched an anti-EU campaign for PR purposes. His anti-EU campaign makes the Brits and yanks feel all nice inside. However he has forgotten to point out to his American audience that the only political party in Ireland which supports his views on the Lisbon Treaty are Sinn Fein. For readers who don&#039;t know, Sinn Fein are the political wing of the marxist/communist terrorist organisation the IRA. 
  
The Irish are slowly realising what a chancer Ganley really is and I predict he will disappear as quickly as he appeared. In my opinion Ganley hasn&#039;t the intellect or talent to sustain more than the &#039;15 minutes of fame&#039; his money has bought him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Declan Ganley and Libertas are about as anti-European as it is possible to be. Don&#8217;t be taken by his press releases and PR stunts, instead listen to what he says to his American audience (at the heritage foundation) and watch what he does. Ganley is a British man living in Ireland, with American business projects. He wants to be taken seriously in Britain and America and has launched an anti-EU campaign for PR purposes. His anti-EU campaign makes the Brits and yanks feel all nice inside. However he has forgotten to point out to his American audience that the only political party in Ireland which supports his views on the Lisbon Treaty are Sinn Fein. For readers who don&#8217;t know, Sinn Fein are the political wing of the marxist/communist terrorist organisation the IRA. </p>
<p>The Irish are slowly realising what a chancer Ganley really is and I predict he will disappear as quickly as he appeared. In my opinion Ganley hasn&#8217;t the intellect or talent to sustain more than the &#8217;15 minutes of fame&#8217; his money has bought him.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Worth &#187; Libertas: cuckoo in the EU nest</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/12/libertas-launches/comment-page-1/#comment-60697</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Worth &#187; Libertas: cuckoo in the EU nest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1948#comment-60697</guid>
		<description>[...] the complicated matter of governing. Guido seems to have fallen for the Libertas rhetoric, while Nosemonkey is, as ever, more thoughtful and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the complicated matter of governing. Guido seems to have fallen for the Libertas rhetoric, while Nosemonkey is, as ever, more thoughtful and [...]</p>
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