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	<title>Comments on: The constitutional position of European Commissioners</title>
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	<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/</link>
	<description>In search of a European identity</description>
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		<title>By: eurealist.co.uk &#187; European Commissioner&#8217;s loyalties</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-60715</link>
		<dc:creator>eurealist.co.uk &#187; European Commissioner&#8217;s loyalties</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-60715</guid>
		<description>[...] Commissioner&#8217;s loyalties  Nosemonkey  poses an interesting question about the constitutional issue raised by sending Baroness Ashton to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Commissioner&#8217;s loyalties  Nosemonkey  poses an interesting question about the constitutional issue raised by sending Baroness Ashton to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ms Blears, Why Did Your Government Adopt The Fascist Enabling Act? &#171; Centurean2&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-60200</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms Blears, Why Did Your Government Adopt The Fascist Enabling Act? &#171; Centurean2&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-60200</guid>
		<description>[...] The constitutional position of European Commissioners [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The constitutional position of European Commissioners [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Enabling Act&#8230;Our Very Own Fascist Act- How Sweet&#8230;. &#171; uk1884</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-60198</link>
		<dc:creator>Enabling Act&#8230;Our Very Own Fascist Act- How Sweet&#8230;. &#171; uk1884</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-60198</guid>
		<description>[...] The constitutional position of European Commissioners [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The constitutional position of European Commissioners [...]</p>
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		<title>By: nosemonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59149</link>
		<dc:creator>nosemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59149</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t say I&#039;ve worked out my ideal political system - far easier to criticise than be constructive, I find (hence the whole blogging thing...)

The only thing I am certain of is that I want as many checks and balances on government as possible. Majorities are dangerous things, and unchecked rule by majority even more so. Chuck party machinery in there, making the elected representatives beholden to the party rather than the people, and the whole situation gets even worse.

(Are your Telegraph bosses aware that you like the Chartists and are anti-monarchy, by the way? I know it&#039;s been all change there in recent years, but surely they haven&#039;t gone so far as to allow THAT? Heh...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;ve worked out my ideal political system &#8211; far easier to criticise than be constructive, I find (hence the whole blogging thing&#8230;)</p>
<p>The only thing I am certain of is that I want as many checks and balances on government as possible. Majorities are dangerous things, and unchecked rule by majority even more so. Chuck party machinery in there, making the elected representatives beholden to the party rather than the people, and the whole situation gets even worse.</p>
<p>(Are your Telegraph bosses aware that you like the Chartists and are anti-monarchy, by the way? I know it&#8217;s been all change there in recent years, but surely they haven&#8217;t gone so far as to allow THAT? Heh&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Bruno</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59111</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59111</guid>
		<description>I am against an elected Lords too, it should be abolished. Full stop.
Why is bureaucratic or non-democratic or monarchial any better than factional/party interest? Governments should be formed out of majorities in unicameral parliaments (first past the post elections naturally), cabinet ministers should be comprised of deputies. All executive functions should be held in the elected government, crown prerogatives (the power of Whitehall) should be abolished and the constitutional role of the monarch removed. I quite like the Chartist ideas.
There are major problems with the centralisation of executive powers in the US President - one that has been manifest in the long term decline of democratic politics there. As for the EU, I argue, all the time that it is the Council that is the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am against an elected Lords too, it should be abolished. Full stop.<br />
Why is bureaucratic or non-democratic or monarchial any better than factional/party interest? Governments should be formed out of majorities in unicameral parliaments (first past the post elections naturally), cabinet ministers should be comprised of deputies. All executive functions should be held in the elected government, crown prerogatives (the power of Whitehall) should be abolished and the constitutional role of the monarch removed. I quite like the Chartist ideas.<br />
There are major problems with the centralisation of executive powers in the US President &#8211; one that has been manifest in the long term decline of democratic politics there. As for the EU, I argue, all the time that it is the Council that is the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: nosemonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59108</link>
		<dc:creator>nosemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59108</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Robin&lt;/strong&gt; - indeed. In fact, I think I&#039;ve seen some of the anti-EU crowd claim that any member of the Privy Council who voted for the Lisbon Treaty in Parliament has technically broken their oath, and therefore technically committed treason. But then again, their oath is to the Queen, and she signed the thing into law, so by that logic she&#039;s also committed treason. Time for another regicide, perhaps?

&lt;strong&gt;Julien&lt;/strong&gt; - true, to an extent this is all largely meaningless theory, but still. Oaths like these are still meant to mean something - and the question of whose interest the Commissioners are working towards, the EU&#039;s as a whole or that of their own nations of origin, is a vital one for the entire Union.

Please note, for example, the current EU reaction to Italy&#039;s clampdown on the Roma - very slow to do anything at all, because the last Justice Commissioner (an Italian mate of Silvio Berlusconi) deemed it all OK. Was he acting as a independent European or a partisan Italian? I strongly suspect the latter. As long as this remains the case, the independence and impartiality of the Commission - which is vital for it to work effectively as long as it remains in its current form - is deeply compromised.

&lt;strong&gt;Ken&lt;/strong&gt; - I always start to worry when we&#039;re in agreement about this sort of thing... Heh!

&lt;strong&gt;Bruno&lt;/strong&gt; - I&#039;m actually quite a fan of including non-democratic elements in governmental systems to provide a check on factional/party interest. It&#039;s got me into a fair amount of trouble in the past - especially when I argued &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=733&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;against an elected House of Lords&lt;/a&gt; as part of an event organised by the Elect the Lords campaign - all sorts of accusations of elitism, etc. (especially as I&#039;m loosely pro-EU).

Semi-relatedly, I see no real problem in creating someone a peer so that they can become a minister as long as they remain accountable to the Commons - and as long as they are a) demonstrably more qualified for the job than anyone in the Commons, and b) haven&#039;t previously brought a high office into disrepute. Which kind of discounts Mandelson. I also don&#039;t like the massive hypocrisy of going on about making the House of Lords more democratic while continuing to appoint political buddies to the Upper House - whatever happened to leading by example? But still, it&#039;s not really that different to the US Cabinet situation (something I tried arguing one time &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=312&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;in relation to the Commission&lt;/a&gt;).

When it comes to the Commission, I likewise see no fundamental problem with it being unelected - especially now that the EP has proved that it can boot them out. There still needs to be more democratic accountability and greater transparency, though (and it&#039;s worth noting that the highly secretive Council is a far worse offender). The logistics of electing the Commission would also be tricky - just as would electing the US Cabinet (or the UK Cabinet, for that matter). It&#039;s something I&#039;ve been meaning to do a lengthy series of posts on for ages, but have never quite got around to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Robin</strong> &#8211; indeed. In fact, I think I&#8217;ve seen some of the anti-EU crowd claim that any member of the Privy Council who voted for the Lisbon Treaty in Parliament has technically broken their oath, and therefore technically committed treason. But then again, their oath is to the Queen, and she signed the thing into law, so by that logic she&#8217;s also committed treason. Time for another regicide, perhaps?</p>
<p><strong>Julien</strong> &#8211; true, to an extent this is all largely meaningless theory, but still. Oaths like these are still meant to mean something &#8211; and the question of whose interest the Commissioners are working towards, the EU&#8217;s as a whole or that of their own nations of origin, is a vital one for the entire Union.</p>
<p>Please note, for example, the current EU reaction to Italy&#8217;s clampdown on the Roma &#8211; very slow to do anything at all, because the last Justice Commissioner (an Italian mate of Silvio Berlusconi) deemed it all OK. Was he acting as a independent European or a partisan Italian? I strongly suspect the latter. As long as this remains the case, the independence and impartiality of the Commission &#8211; which is vital for it to work effectively as long as it remains in its current form &#8211; is deeply compromised.</p>
<p><strong>Ken</strong> &#8211; I always start to worry when we&#8217;re in agreement about this sort of thing&#8230; Heh!</p>
<p><strong>Bruno</strong> &#8211; I&#8217;m actually quite a fan of including non-democratic elements in governmental systems to provide a check on factional/party interest. It&#8217;s got me into a fair amount of trouble in the past &#8211; especially when I argued <a href="http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=733" rel="nofollow">against an elected House of Lords</a> as part of an event organised by the Elect the Lords campaign &#8211; all sorts of accusations of elitism, etc. (especially as I&#8217;m loosely pro-EU).</p>
<p>Semi-relatedly, I see no real problem in creating someone a peer so that they can become a minister as long as they remain accountable to the Commons &#8211; and as long as they are a) demonstrably more qualified for the job than anyone in the Commons, and b) haven&#8217;t previously brought a high office into disrepute. Which kind of discounts Mandelson. I also don&#8217;t like the massive hypocrisy of going on about making the House of Lords more democratic while continuing to appoint political buddies to the Upper House &#8211; whatever happened to leading by example? But still, it&#8217;s not really that different to the US Cabinet situation (something I tried arguing one time <a href="http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=312" rel="nofollow">in relation to the Commission</a>).</p>
<p>When it comes to the Commission, I likewise see no fundamental problem with it being unelected &#8211; especially now that the EP has proved that it can boot them out. There still needs to be more democratic accountability and greater transparency, though (and it&#8217;s worth noting that the highly secretive Council is a far worse offender). The logistics of electing the Commission would also be tricky &#8211; just as would electing the US Cabinet (or the UK Cabinet, for that matter). It&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve been meaning to do a lengthy series of posts on for ages, but have never quite got around to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruno</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59104</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59104</guid>
		<description>The real problem with Ashton (who definitely breaches the Commisison&#039;s Code of Conduct) is the one inherent to the House of Lords - it is appointed and unelected. She has served in the government since 2001 without ever facing election. Public authority should not constituted or exercised in this way. The swap with Mandelson, avoiding a troublesome by-election for an unpopular government, compounds the crime and the anti-democratic character of the Lords. Should Europe have place for executive public powers to be exercised by unelected people, whether in Brussels or Westminster?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real problem with Ashton (who definitely breaches the Commisison&#8217;s Code of Conduct) is the one inherent to the House of Lords &#8211; it is appointed and unelected. She has served in the government since 2001 without ever facing election. Public authority should not constituted or exercised in this way. The swap with Mandelson, avoiding a troublesome by-election for an unpopular government, compounds the crime and the anti-democratic character of the Lords. Should Europe have place for executive public powers to be exercised by unelected people, whether in Brussels or Westminster?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Adams</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59101</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59101</guid>
		<description>You pose an interesting question, as you say: The question of where a European Commissioner’s loyalties lie is a vital one. You mention that she steered the Lisbon treaty through the Lords, but Gordon Brown steered it through the Commons, which raises an equally vital question; where do our elected government’s loyalties lie.  

On the question of Baroness Ashton I see no problem that is not also evident with any other British EU commissioner, the person she is replacing (Peter Mandelson) epitomises the problem, he firstly took an oath to the Crown, then an oath to the EU and now as he is once again in government and has been raised to the Lords, one assumes another oath to the Crown. 

But Mandelson will also be collecting a large financial handout from the EU for the next three years, whilst he is a serving member of the British government and will eventually be paid an EU pension just like all other ex - Commissioners in the Lords, where do their loyalties lie? 

It would seem that taking an oath and loyalty to ones own country have no meaning whatsoever and are a redundant hangover from a nationalistic past. Because on one level the question of loyalties cannot be answered, yet on another level the answer is so simple as to not need stating.   

Mr Blair was correct when he described the situation with the EU 

Basically you have a choice: co-operate in Europe (EU) and you betray Britain; be unreasonable in Europe, be praised back home, and be utterly without influence in Europe (EU). It’s sort of: isolation or treason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You pose an interesting question, as you say: The question of where a European Commissioner’s loyalties lie is a vital one. You mention that she steered the Lisbon treaty through the Lords, but Gordon Brown steered it through the Commons, which raises an equally vital question; where do our elected government’s loyalties lie.  </p>
<p>On the question of Baroness Ashton I see no problem that is not also evident with any other British EU commissioner, the person she is replacing (Peter Mandelson) epitomises the problem, he firstly took an oath to the Crown, then an oath to the EU and now as he is once again in government and has been raised to the Lords, one assumes another oath to the Crown. </p>
<p>But Mandelson will also be collecting a large financial handout from the EU for the next three years, whilst he is a serving member of the British government and will eventually be paid an EU pension just like all other ex &#8211; Commissioners in the Lords, where do their loyalties lie? </p>
<p>It would seem that taking an oath and loyalty to ones own country have no meaning whatsoever and are a redundant hangover from a nationalistic past. Because on one level the question of loyalties cannot be answered, yet on another level the answer is so simple as to not need stating.   </p>
<p>Mr Blair was correct when he described the situation with the EU </p>
<p>Basically you have a choice: co-operate in Europe (EU) and you betray Britain; be unreasonable in Europe, be praised back home, and be utterly without influence in Europe (EU). It’s sort of: isolation or treason.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Worth &#187; Ashton gets backing from Schulz, so all&#8217;s OK (not)</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59091</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Worth &#187; Ashton gets backing from Schulz, so all&#8217;s OK (not)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59091</guid>
		<description>[...] Mark Mardell has been trying to determine the tactic Nigel Farage of UKIP is going to adopt, while Nosemonkey has more detailed background. Ashton&#8217;s answers to written questions tabled by MEPs are can be found [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Mark Mardell has been trying to determine the tactic Nigel Farage of UKIP is going to adopt, while Nosemonkey has more detailed background. Ashton&#8217;s answers to written questions tabled by MEPs are can be found [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Julien Frisch</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/10/the-constitutional-position-of-european-commissioners/comment-page-1/#comment-59090</link>
		<dc:creator>Julien Frisch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1855#comment-59090</guid>
		<description>As a non-anti-EU person I see her involvement in the Lisbon Treaty ratification as the only reason to become EU Commissioner. I haven&#039;t heard any other good reason so far. And this reason remains quite weak because every speaker would have been involved in the ratification and her only quality was not to fail.

When it comes to the life peer issue, I don&#039;t see much problems, at least not in terms of substance. Maybe even the Queen could release her from her formal duties for the time she is serving in the Commission...?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a non-anti-EU person I see her involvement in the Lisbon Treaty ratification as the only reason to become EU Commissioner. I haven&#8217;t heard any other good reason so far. And this reason remains quite weak because every speaker would have been involved in the ratification and her only quality was not to fail.</p>
<p>When it comes to the life peer issue, I don&#8217;t see much problems, at least not in terms of substance. Maybe even the Queen could release her from her formal duties for the time she is serving in the Commission&#8230;?!</p>
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