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	<title>Comments on: Italian fascism returning?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/</link>
	<description>In search of a European identity</description>
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		<title>By: Italian racism - not just against Roma&#160;&#124;&#160;Nosemonkey&#8217;s EUtopia</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-58944</link>
		<dc:creator>Italian racism - not just against Roma&#160;&#124;&#160;Nosemonkey&#8217;s EUtopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-58944</guid>
		<description>[...] the worrying moves against Italy&#8217;s Roma population back in the summer, it seems that racial tensions are on the rise Italy-wide. After all, if the state&#8217;s going to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the worrying moves against Italy&#8217;s Roma population back in the summer, it seems that racial tensions are on the rise Italy-wide. After all, if the state&#8217;s going to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: nosemonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54616</link>
		<dc:creator>nosemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54616</guid>
		<description>You see, what you&#039;re doing there is confusing &quot;empirical evidence&quot; with &quot;opinion&quot;.

Here&#039;s a quick &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Romani_people&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;history of the Roma&lt;/a&gt;, via Wikipedia (so not overly reliable, though this one seems relatively decent). No one exactly knows their origin - &quot;Gypsy&quot; stems from the belief that they were originally Egyptian, for example - most now reckoning instead that they originated from India or Persia. &quot;Roma&quot; comes not from Romania, but from their own name for &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;their native language&lt;/a&gt;, &quot;Rom&quot;.

As for those Roma in Italy? It&#039;s estimated that there are &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.euractiv.com/en/socialeurope/italian-roma-crackdown-causes-rift-parliament/article-172503&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;160,000 Roma in Italy&lt;/a&gt; - of which c.70,000 are Italian citizens, and c.60,000 Romanian citizens. That&#039;s hardly a majority of Romanians (just 37.5%, in fact), and yet Frattini&#039;s actions have unilaterally declared ALL of them to be Romanian. That&#039;s rather like me deciding, based on little more than a hunch, that because your name&#039;s Robin you must be from Robbins Island, and so deporting you to Tasmania.

Empiricism, for future reference, is about knowledge based on facts.

(I would try to address your last sentence, but I have no idea what it means.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You see, what you&#8217;re doing there is confusing &#8220;empirical evidence&#8221; with &#8220;opinion&#8221;.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a quick <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Romani_people" rel="nofollow">history of the Roma</a>, via Wikipedia (so not overly reliable, though this one seems relatively decent). No one exactly knows their origin &#8211; &#8220;Gypsy&#8221; stems from the belief that they were originally Egyptian, for example &#8211; most now reckoning instead that they originated from India or Persia. &#8220;Roma&#8221; comes not from Romania, but from their own name for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language" rel="nofollow">their native language</a>, &#8220;Rom&#8221;.</p>
<p>As for those Roma in Italy? It&#8217;s estimated that there are <a href="http://www.euractiv.com/en/socialeurope/italian-roma-crackdown-causes-rift-parliament/article-172503" rel="nofollow">160,000 Roma in Italy</a> &#8211; of which c.70,000 are Italian citizens, and c.60,000 Romanian citizens. That&#8217;s hardly a majority of Romanians (just 37.5%, in fact), and yet Frattini&#8217;s actions have unilaterally declared ALL of them to be Romanian. That&#8217;s rather like me deciding, based on little more than a hunch, that because your name&#8217;s Robin you must be from Robbins Island, and so deporting you to Tasmania.</p>
<p>Empiricism, for future reference, is about knowledge based on facts.</p>
<p>(I would try to address your last sentence, but I have no idea what it means.)</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54613</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54613</guid>
		<description>I thought the reason they were called Romanian first WAS because they had come from Romania, and most peoples lack of awareness here of people from there means they dont know about Gypsies.
Mysources are my empiracal evidence. It may not be most, but it is at least a sizeable part.It`s not just some of them who actually live on carts with scrappy canvas coverings,it`s whole villages and parts of cities/towns that are populated by Roma seperately from others. This was also a deliberate policy of Ceacescu.
Trouble is, is it better that they were fully integrated, or given a different status and LABELLED by authorities. does being favoured, like having extra links to the EU or BBC radio shows here ,help ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the reason they were called Romanian first WAS because they had come from Romania, and most peoples lack of awareness here of people from there means they dont know about Gypsies.<br />
Mysources are my empiracal evidence. It may not be most, but it is at least a sizeable part.It`s not just some of them who actually live on carts with scrappy canvas coverings,it`s whole villages and parts of cities/towns that are populated by Roma seperately from others. This was also a deliberate policy of Ceacescu.<br />
Trouble is, is it better that they were fully integrated, or given a different status and LABELLED by authorities. does being favoured, like having extra links to the EU or BBC radio shows here ,help ?</p>
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		<title>By: nosemonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54588</link>
		<dc:creator>nosemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54588</guid>
		<description>Robin, the reason they were described as Romanians was because Berlusconi&#039;s buddy Franco Frattini, while still a Commissioner, had them officially and unilaterally labelled as such - a decision that is currently under review (unsurprisingly considering that Frattini was Berlusconi&#039;s nominee to the Commission and has now left the Commission to join Berlusconi&#039;s government).

The rest of your points, certainly the cycle of ostracism thing (bar the &quot;many if not most&quot; bit, for which I&#039;d like to see your sources - and which in any case could be disputed by similar methods as have been used to demonstrate that the higher proportional conviction rate for African Americans in the US can be seen as down to a combination of institutional racism and the aforementioned cycle) may have some validity. But the real problem here is that the Roma - like the Jews before them - are not of any one particular state, so lack the protection of any one state.

Being, as they are, also massively under-represented at EU level, and in any case a largely disparate community of communities with few ties binding them all together, they have no organised group/party large enough to stand up for them when incidents such as these take place. Which is, of course, part of the reason why Frattini was able to get away with labelling the Italian Roma as Romanian in the first place...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, the reason they were described as Romanians was because Berlusconi&#8217;s buddy Franco Frattini, while still a Commissioner, had them officially and unilaterally labelled as such &#8211; a decision that is currently under review (unsurprisingly considering that Frattini was Berlusconi&#8217;s nominee to the Commission and has now left the Commission to join Berlusconi&#8217;s government).</p>
<p>The rest of your points, certainly the cycle of ostracism thing (bar the &#8220;many if not most&#8221; bit, for which I&#8217;d like to see your sources &#8211; and which in any case could be disputed by similar methods as have been used to demonstrate that the higher proportional conviction rate for African Americans in the US can be seen as down to a combination of institutional racism and the aforementioned cycle) may have some validity. But the real problem here is that the Roma &#8211; like the Jews before them &#8211; are not of any one particular state, so lack the protection of any one state.</p>
<p>Being, as they are, also massively under-represented at EU level, and in any case a largely disparate community of communities with few ties binding them all together, they have no organised group/party large enough to stand up for them when incidents such as these take place. Which is, of course, part of the reason why Frattini was able to get away with labelling the Italian Roma as Romanian in the first place&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54586</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54586</guid>
		<description>Colin,

The fact that they were originally described as Romanians gives the clue that they have recently arrived.
Unfortunately back in the Eastern countries,especially Ro and BG, they are considered second class citizens. Also unfortunately many if not most live up to that, and they are not fully integrated.It becomes a circle of them not being liked, they then dislike or treat with contempt the &quot;host&quot; community, which makes more of &quot;them&quot; not like &quot;them&quot;, which makes them stick to their own, which makes them feared more, which makes them...etc
Getting as hysterical as the backlash (as some here are)is not going to help them either. 
Perhaps a homeland for them. But where in the world ? And not all of them, or even the majority, would want to leave the countries they are in.And who would want to pay for it ?Diffuse them throughout Europe ? May lessen the fear of &quot;them&quot; but now you`re talking forced migration, resettlement (and trains ?) Maybe the Italians are on top of this .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colin,</p>
<p>The fact that they were originally described as Romanians gives the clue that they have recently arrived.<br />
Unfortunately back in the Eastern countries,especially Ro and BG, they are considered second class citizens. Also unfortunately many if not most live up to that, and they are not fully integrated.It becomes a circle of them not being liked, they then dislike or treat with contempt the &#8220;host&#8221; community, which makes more of &#8220;them&#8221; not like &#8220;them&#8221;, which makes them stick to their own, which makes them feared more, which makes them&#8230;etc<br />
Getting as hysterical as the backlash (as some here are)is not going to help them either.<br />
Perhaps a homeland for them. But where in the world ? And not all of them, or even the majority, would want to leave the countries they are in.And who would want to pay for it ?Diffuse them throughout Europe ? May lessen the fear of &#8220;them&#8221; but now you`re talking forced migration, resettlement (and trains ?) Maybe the Italians are on top of this .</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54566</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54566</guid>
		<description>@Robin: How much of Italy&#039;s present Roma population consists of recent migrants from further East, and how much has been in Italy for much longer?  As a group, Roma have been in Western Europe for several centuries at least, and certainly in the case of France, Spain and the UK, the great majority of Roma are citizens and natives of their current country of residence, often going back several generations.  Italy may be different, but I&#039;d like to see the figures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robin: How much of Italy&#8217;s present Roma population consists of recent migrants from further East, and how much has been in Italy for much longer?  As a group, Roma have been in Western Europe for several centuries at least, and certainly in the case of France, Spain and the UK, the great majority of Roma are citizens and natives of their current country of residence, often going back several generations.  Italy may be different, but I&#8217;d like to see the figures.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54502</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54502</guid>
		<description>It`s because of the EU that those gypsies are in Italy, a sudden influx of an alien culture that the Italians dont desire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It`s because of the EU that those gypsies are in Italy, a sudden influx of an alien culture that the Italians dont desire.</p>
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		<title>By: *Yawn* Another topical Holocaust/Nazis post&#160;&#124;&#160;Nosemonkey&#8217;s EUtopia</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54492</link>
		<dc:creator>*Yawn* Another topical Holocaust/Nazis post&#160;&#124;&#160;Nosemonkey&#8217;s EUtopia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54492</guid>
		<description>[...] recent attacks on Roma settlements in Italy and plans to fingerprint all Roma in the country have so many obvious echoes of the early [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recent attacks on Roma settlements in Italy and plans to fingerprint all Roma in the country have so many obvious echoes of the early [...]</p>
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		<title>By: rz</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54488</link>
		<dc:creator>rz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54488</guid>
		<description>However, it seams unclear to everyone what exactly can be done. Can the Italian Government be sued in front of the European Court of Human Rights? And does the European Court of Human Rights actually have any power without the Lisbon treaty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However, it seams unclear to everyone what exactly can be done. Can the Italian Government be sued in front of the European Court of Human Rights? And does the European Court of Human Rights actually have any power without the Lisbon treaty?</p>
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		<title>By: Captain Eurotrash</title>
		<link>http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2008/07/italian-fascism-returning/comment-page-1/#comment-54486</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain Eurotrash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=1795#comment-54486</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad someone draws the obvious comparison to make clear exactly what&#039;s happening here. What Silvio and his idiot buddies are doing is despicable and unacceptable; it&#039;s blatantly disregardful of their rights as humans and EU citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad someone draws the obvious comparison to make clear exactly what&#8217;s happening here. What Silvio and his idiot buddies are doing is despicable and unacceptable; it&#8217;s blatantly disregardful of their rights as humans and EU citizens.</p>
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